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Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 5:11 pm
by bob Salter
Is there anything I need to know before attempting the seventeen key chanter in the 2nd edition of Cocks and Bryan? I have a feeling there was an addendum sheet but I have never seen it.

Thanks
Bob

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:12 pm
by Barry Say
Hi Bob,

The accuracy of plate 14 is open to question.

The top of the chanter shows the A and B keys on the thumb sided of the chanter with the G# an Bb on the little finger side. This is in no way standard.

The Chanter is reckoned to be a Clough / Picknell but as far as I can tell, following discussions with Andy May, Clough never made a chanter with a B as the lowest note. His long chanters all went down to A. This means that there has been an adjustment of reality to obtain this drawing.

Barry

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 10:12 pm
by bob Salter
I did wonder about the length, it seemed a bit short to me. I guess I wont be trying that one out then unless someone has a more accurate representation the might care to let me see. Are the key shapes in keeping with the clough/picknell design? I guess I could try those keys with the correct pairings on a modern design chanter.

Bob

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:13 pm
by Wallie Ogilvie
Hi Bob,

Not being a pipemaker, I'm no expert, but I would have thought Mike Nelson's drawings freely available on the pipe making section of the NPS site would be more up to date and accurate than the old C& B book.

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:43 pm
by pipemakermike
What you must remember is that these drawings are really a pictorial record of a single old and well used instrument rather than a proper dimensioned drawing and you are relying on the printers accuracy and the skill of the artist. I was lucky that Colin Ross shared his dimensions with me before I got to trying multi-keyed chanters so I have never worked from this picture.

There is also some ambiguous text which states "This arrangement of keys differs from that of the Reids in that the C# is paired with the low D." but the picture shown the D# paired with the low D and the C# paired with the E.

It should also be noted that, on this chanter, the top a key is paired with the top b and the top g# paired with the top a# which is different to our normal use.

If I was to make a 16 or 17 keyed chanter I would pair the C# with the low D and the D# with the low E. If I find time to do this I will probably update my drawings to show the lower keys this way as mechanically it makes more sense.

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 5:43 am
by bob Salter
I use Mike drawings a lot, they are great. I am however, interested in the clough/picknell key arrangement.and would love to attempt to copy it.

Bob

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 11:20 pm
by andymay
Hi Bob - and everyone else.

I strongly suspect that JFB's drawing there is an attempt to combine the hole spacing of one chanter with the key arrangement of another. Some of the confusing aspects have already been pointed out.

However, i believe that the scale shown on the diagram is actually pretty useable, and the basic shape of the keys is reasonably close to that used by Fred Picknell.

Here's what you'd have to do -

1. Ditch the top A sharp key and have a normal A key on the left hand side of the chanter.

2. Shorten the top'a' in the picture so it would cover a G sharp hole, and alter the position of the loop in the top B accordingly.

3. Lengthen the 'low c sharp' so it would reach the low C hole. Yep Low E paired with low C

4. Extend the keys shown as 'low D sharp and low D' so they'd reach the notes Low D and low C sharp. D should be toward the front of the chanter.

5. Extend the low key on the back so they would reach Low B and A. A on the rhs as you play it (usually)

You can see a couple of FP 16 keyed chanters here -
http://2picknellchanters.shutterfly.com

Hope that helps

A

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:30 am
by Richard Evans
andymay wrote:You can see a couple of FP 16 keyed chanters here -
http://2picknellchanters.shutterfly.com


Fascinating pictures, thanks Andy, and also thanks for the article on Clough/Picknell in the 2011 Journal.
What are the Picknell chanters like to play? The keywork is neat but the touches look very close together, rather cluttered.
The woodwork looks rough- clearly there were problems cutting slots and key seats. I wonder what techniques he used? Presumably the seats are just filed. On a couple of my early chanters I did the slots with a parting tool set horizontally in the toolpost, moving the saddle back and forward and gradually working the tool inwards like a tiny chisel to create a groove. Maybe Fred P. did something similar?

Cheers
Richard

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:13 pm
by andymay
Thanks Richard.

As you say, the keys in the middle of the chanters are a bit close - especially the D/C sharp, B/G sharp pairings, a bit more room would be handy!! On mine (red thread in the photos) the trickiest key to get is the C sharp in the middle because the low D key is a bit long. But hey - you get used to it!!

What i've found surprisingly easy to adjust to is the low F and Fsharp being bent the opposite way to normal.

Overall i've been enjoying playing it though - tho bore and holes are slightly different to a 'regular' chanter, and i've had to make a very different type of reed for it. But the tone is great and the tuning mostly good - i've certainly not messed around with it much in that regard.

You can hear it here -https://soundcloud.com/andymay-1/boulavogue

In my opinion, an often overlooked and underrated maker.

Cheers
A

Re: Accuracy of C&B 2nd edition.

PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:35 pm
by Julia Say
an often overlooked and underrated maker


I think it would be fair to say a little-known maker until fairly recently - kind of gap between when they were made and now-ish?

Julia