I saw my love/ Drunken wives of Carlisle

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Re: I saw my love/ Drunken wives of Carlisle

Postby John Gibbons » Sun May 27, 2012 11:20 am

The typo in Mr Preston is glaring - the double-tonic ground is the most noticeable thing in the whole piece, and the odd strain, wrong at the midpoint, stuck out like a sore thumb. I suppose the editors wanted to get the Urtext known again, and too little editing can be better than too much, especially if an editor doesn't say what's been changed. But a performer accurately reproducing a typo is the early music answer to performers copying Billy Pigg's recorded mistakes....

I must try Mr Preston with the C sharp, but I love the change of tone colour on the cross-fingered C naturals in the Dorian mode version.
In Bold Wilkinson too, the colour change is a good reason for playing it this way, and passages like | AcA cec ege| lie very easily under the fingers in the Dorian. Atkinson suggests this one was played both ways. One of the Skene tunes, Wat ye what I got late yestreen, (a big version of Atkinson's Crudds and Whey) also is ostensibly in the 3-finger Mixolydian, so I feel there are too many of these examples, some like this one corroborated from an independent source, to explain them all away as typos.

John
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Re: I saw my love/ Drunken wives of Carlisle

Postby Matt Seattle » Sun May 27, 2012 1:27 pm

Good points on the c naturals, John, and some further explorations are evidently required of me - but when will there be time?!?!?

As for the Mr Preston typo: as much as anything else it is this typo, reproduced by the otherwise apparently competent, that makes me question, not the trustworthiness of my own perceptions, but what others are hearing. They are missing something that is screamingly obvious to me, and it follows that I am likely missing something that is screamingly obvious to them - frightening on both counts!

I too incline to the c natural in Mr P, though Jon Swayne plays it with c# IIRC, and in context it works.
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Re: Mr Preston

Postby John Gibbons » Sun May 27, 2012 8:08 pm

I see John Offord in his 2nd edition has edited the typo, as the dodgy A has been altered to a G;
this works harmonically, but why not to a B? Every other strain has a B on this beat.

Those veiled c naturals are lovely in this tune - and on a Swayne chanter. If he does prefer c sharp,
it must be for some other reason than the noise they make....

If you play it as written, you can also get a lovely Tierce de Picardie, resolving from the final B at the end of the piece, up to a c sharp, and the contrast really works....

All the best,

John
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Re: C nat on BP

Postby John Gibbons » Fri Jun 01, 2012 8:37 am

From Atkinson's Curds and Whey to Vickers' Cruds and Cream - a different tune, but also with a C nat in the MS, as does Rook's The Old Man Niggled It (?), which is a relative of this. Both versions have G-a range, but work fine with the key signature as written. So not a normally fingered BP tune with that key signature. Change the tune or change the fingering?
This thread needs a new title by now.

John
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Re: I saw my love/ Drunken wives of Carlisle

Postby Ben Power » Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:58 am

I'm woefully ignorant on this subject, but did just want to reply to Matt's description of modern border piping and modes. Not disagreeing with you Matt at all really I don't think, but just observing I've been playing those Goodacre reproduction border pipes (loud and outdoor town piper type things) and they really knock out the accidentals beautifully and easily (though not, thus far, much in the way of overblowing) and I've been playing some old tunes with the minor third in them very happily—my current favourite being a hornpipe that Pete Stewart found somewhere and played on to the LBPS site a while back from some 1707 fiddle manuscript he dug up. We'd have to ask Julian just how close he copied the chanter I suppose to see how readily the original might have done it. Ever get those old border pipes you found up and going?
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Re: I saw my love/ Drunken wives of Carlisle

Postby Matt Seattle » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:41 pm

Ben, I'm also woefully ignorant of the chromatics that were or were not played in the past, and note with interest your experience with Julian's Border chanter. While I would like to know more about the historical instruments, this is not my area of expertise, and I am personally more preoccupied with what I can do now on a modern instrument, though (mainly) with historical repertoire and composition techniques as a foundation. The fact that the instrument CAN do more now means the player MUST do more - that's how I see it anyway.

No, for many reasons I haven't got the antique set going.
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Re: I saw my love/ Drunken wives of Carlisle

Postby John Gibbons » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:27 pm

Interesting to see in Common Stock today that the original set of Teribus has a c natural, though the modern descendant of it has c sharp.
Another one!

John
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Re: I saw my love/ Drunken wives of Carlisle

Postby Matt Seattle » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:09 am

John Gibbons wrote:Interesting to see in Common Stock today that the original set of Teribus has a c natural, though the modern descendant of it has c sharp.
Another one!
John

It's faulty notation, John, yet again. There are enough examples in Vickers to show how this works with semi-literate transcribers, who take the key sig from the final bar because they think it is the tonic! The direct descendants of THIS Teribus, in vocal AND fife band versions, by purely AURAL transmission, are mixolydian. See the full thread on dunsire from which Pete extracted his article, also youtubes of the Fife band and song versions.
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The Old Terioden

Postby John Gibbons » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:40 pm

I agree, after playing through it, that c sharp works better here.
A lovely mini-variation set, and the 2 bar structure is interesting.
There are few more variations in that material, not written down but asking to be played.
I suspect the trouble will be knowing when to stop.

John
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